Multi-Author System

[TomFulp]

The time has come for us to finally tackle the multi-author system on Newgrounds. This has been discussed by many people in the past, and potential issues have been explored.

I will try to describe our rough idea, and will then open the floor to all comments / criticisms. This is a VERY IMPORTANT forum - the discussion that results from this thread will be taken under heavy advisement as we build the new system. Therefore, put on your thinking caps and submit some good ideas!

To provide a brief history - Newgrounds currently allows only one author to submit a piece of content. More and more, we are seeing collaborations between Flash users, often an artist and a programmer. I've felt the bite of our current system; many of my collaborations are not listed under my user account. :)

Some users have come up with creative workarounds. Ben Spurgin has a Section8Studios user account for his collaborated works. While this works out ok, we think it would be much cooler if the authors could retain their individual accounts with credits for what they have done.

So here is the system... A single author submits a piece of Flash to Newgrounds. The music credit will still be the same as it is now - so musicians will still have their own spot (this works best because we have so many submissions with audio credits other than NG users). For any remaining credits, the person submitting will be able to enter user names of up to three or four additional contributors (we are thinking between a four and five author credit limit).

We have talked a lot about how they should credit these users - and the bottom line is, it becomes a mess. Therefore, the authors listed in the left column will not have specific credits. A visit to Alien Hominid may look like this:

Authors: Synj (profile | site)
TomFulp (profile | site)

Below the voting panel, we will have the dropdown boxes like this:

Other submissions by Synj:
-------------------------

Other submissions by TomFulp:
-------------------------

We will then leave it up to the person submitting the content to attribute proper credits in the AUTHORS DESCRIPTION. Most people already attribute credits there.

The main benefit of this system is to tie collaborations to the accounts of all users involved. This way, when you view the profile for TomFulp OR Synj, both will have links to Alien Hominid.

Going back to the submission process... The person who submits the content will have sole control over editing that submission. He is basically the "team leader", which means he can also ADD and REMOVE credits at will. When additional credit is provided, it does not immediately appear on the page. Otherwise, someone could submit really naughty content and attribute credit to other users. Instead, those additional users must log in to their accounts and VALIDATE their proposed credit.

Example: If SYNJ submitted Alien Hominid and listed me as an additional credit, I would then log in to my user account and click the button to CONFIRM that I was involved with the project.

The person submitting will have a choice; the submission can either be embargoed (put on hold) until all additional authors sign off on their credits, OR the submission can be listed INSTANTLY, at which point the credits will be added as the additional authors sign off.

Most teams will want to embargo their submission until everyone signs off. This way, the submission will appear in the Portal with full credits intact. Some people, however, may prefer to just get the content on-line. I'd like to keep the system flexible in this respect.

I hope I have described this well. I'm now opening the floor to comments. LET YOUR IDEAS AND OPINIONS BE HEARD!

[Gsus-5]

I really think that sounds like a splendid idea, man...I can truly understand that for many flash-creators it's been a real hassle to shout out to all those people that contributed and helped along the way. I have confidence in you guys, and reckon you can come up with a good solution to the problem..seems like a great thing to do...

[DuMa-RyoHahn]

maybe you should let both authors have control. instead of the one who submited it.

[AlphaFactor]

I think that sounds like a great idea!!

One slight modification to consider is explicitly making clear in the "works by author" drop-down boxes that the particular author was the primary author or the collaborating author but the idea sounds great regardless!!

:)

[hoagiejones]

I have an idea, Tom. To stop your account being flooding with links to confirm movies one didn't work on, have it so in your log in options, each person has a list of people that they will collaborate with. So say you are working on a game with synj. He goes to his Collaborators List and adds your account to it, and you do the same, adding synj to your list. Then after that, say you submitted the game to the Portal, and put synj as someone who helped, then he has to confirm it in his log in box. But say I added you to my Collaborators list, and you did not add me. I make a movie and say you helped me with it, you are not asked to confirm you worked on it. This will prevent popular users from getting extreme ammounts of confirmations that they have no affiliation to.

[jallar]

This is a very good idea! I feel that you should do it the way you've just described. I bet you thought long about that one ;-)

[IhateNG]

At 12/13/02 11:00 AM, Unmindful wrote: I have an idea, Tom. To stop your account being flooding with links to confirm movies one didn't work on, have it so in your log in options, each person has a list of people that they will collaborate with.

I agree with the above quote. I was going to say the same thing.

[Sizzler]

At 12/13/02 09:34 AM, TomFulp wrote:
So here is the system... A single author submits a piece of Flash to Newgrounds. The music credit will still be the same as it is now - so musicians will still have their own spot (this works best because we have so many submissions with audio credits other than NG users). For any remaining credits, the person submitting will be able to enter user names of up to three or four additional contributors (we are thinking between a four and five author credit limit).

We have talked a lot about how they should credit these users - and the bottom line is, it becomes a mess. Therefore, the authors listed in the left column will not have specific credits. A visit to Alien Hominid may look like this:

Authors: Synj (profile | site)
TomFulp (profile | site)

The main benefit of this system is to tie collaborations to the accounts of all users involved. This way, when you view the profile for TomFulp OR Synj, both will have links to Alien Hominid.

With your proposal in mind, I have one suggestion:

In viewing the way you wish to list the authors involved, we see there is no way to distinguish the amount of involvement for each author.

For example, with Alien Hominid, it was equal work - pretty much 50/50 effort wise. But what if I create a movie, and I ask someone to draw a background, and I do everything else - should my friend be given co-author status for a simple addition? Quality/Quantity of input deserves to be mentioned in the work.

The amount of work provided by those OTHER then the "Team Leader" can vary greatly. So, when crediting authors, I suggest this: have two classifications - Co-Author, and Contributor.

(the title of each classification is important - If it were "Major Contribution" and "Minor Contribution", those with a "Minor" would not feel very important.)

... So, a visit to Alien Hominid would look like this:

Co-Author: Synj
Co-Author: Tom Fulp

And a visit to a movie by Section8Studios would look like this:

Co-Author: Ben Spurgin
Co-Author: Damian Martins
Co-Author: Todd Madere

And a visit to a clock movie could look like this:

Author: GrapesClock
Contributor: AppleClock
Contributor: OrangeClock
Contributor: Olskoo

And of course, it would be possible for a submission to have co-authors AND contributors. As well, whether you'd list the other movies by "Contributors" is up to you, but I don't see any problem with doing so. I believe mentioning those involved in an entry as I've shown will still tie collaborations to all involved, and won't create a giant mess on the entry's page.

[Joxa]

just keep the current system.

[SketchMichaels]

I agree with Unmindful, Tom. While I find your plan is nothing short of ingenius, as more and more works are collaborative efforts, there is a drawback to attributing multiple authors.

If someone submits a stolen film, and says they worked on it with someone else, even though that someone else had nothing to do with the person submitting, we basically have to take their word for it on a certain extent. I think that, in addition to having to confirm that you have worked on a piece with someone else, you should have what Unmindful was saying, some sort of "Collaboration List" of authors whom you have worked with. You would both have to put each other on your respective lists in order to credit them (or you) in any movies/games.

That way, if someone was trying to take credit for working on something with someone else, and they were not on their collaboration list, they could not list them as having worked together, further eliminating bogus submissions. While I realize we have a whistle system installed now (so no one throws it in my face), I just foresee this as being another attempt at people trying to pawn off stuff as their own.

Other than that, it sounds flawless.

[KnottsberryClock]

I agree with Sizzler's idea, however I thought it would be a good idea to customise the titles according to what each person did. For example:

Original Idea: StrawberryClock
Graphics: OrangeClock
Backgrounds: B

Excluding music and audio of course.

[SketchMichaels]

That's a nice idea, Sizzler. The only thing I foresee being problematic is the delegation of roles; how to determine how much effort one gave without hurting anyone's feelings, or giving anyone undue credit, etc. And the term "contributors", while it seems politically correct, still seems like it holds inferiority over the people who worked on it. If I were to bring in a background artist (since I'm a character artist, and can't do backgrounds to save my life), I would give him (or her) equal credit for having participating. Then, I would simply put in the artist comments "and a special thanks to whoever for their work on the backgrounds".

An alternative, that would mix both your idea and Tom's, is to have the author's section, as has been expressed by Tom already. Then, have a second section, where you can list contributors. That way, you could list the guy who did the background (if it was just one), the guy who maybe gave you an idea, or a character, etc. Make THAT list four or five people long, while limiting the author's list to maybe two or three. It seems a bit croweded, but I'm just throwing out ideas here...

Actually, i dont even care. If someone has co-operated with someone, he tells it in authors comments. But as long as it wont affect the loading times and that shit it wont be a bad thing.

[cashuu]

gud i haved all my hard art work going in to a flash then sombody elas getting all the credit, you allso should make it so that e.g i make a game called suicide and when it comes for me to vote on movies that i like every day i would vote fore 4 submissions then vote 5 for my own and that will count as a vote and that will help me, you should make it so people carnt vote fore there own work when they are logged in.

what do you think

[Kaymon]

Looks fine to me.

[Tamarat69r]

KMA

Kick the pop-ups
Make the voting system the way it was
Allow the server upgrade to be completed!

Kiss
My
Ass

Take a survey about the changes dammit!

[Flat-line]

Wow, everything you said is simply awsome, Tom! You mentioned almost anything I've thought about. Only extra thing I would add is give the submitting user the choice to whether he'll be the only one to be able to edit the submission, or assign other contributors as "moderators" who'll be able to edit the submission as well. Except that only the original submitter will be able to change the moderators.

[zipstyke]

At 12/13/02 09:34 AM, TomFulp wrote: Going back to the submission process... The person who submits the content will have sole control over editing that submission. He is basically the "team leader", which means he can also ADD and REMOVE credits at will. When additional credit is provided, it does not immediately appear on the page. Otherwise, someone could submit really naughty content and attribute credit to other users. Instead, those additional users must log in to their accounts and VALIDATE their proposed credit.

Brilliant idea.

What about portal awards though. If someone were to get daily #1, would both authors get the credit?

And if it is validated, why not have unlimited amount of users, seperated by the "," as the clockcrew has made a flash with around 15 other users, which this method would work well.

No complaints, brilliant idea.

[zipstyke]

At 12/13/02 11:36 AM, KnottsberryClock wrote: I agree with Sizzler's idea, however I thought it would be a good idea to customise the titles according to what each person did. For example:

Original Idea: StrawberryClock
Graphics: OrangeClock
Backgrounds: B

Excluding music and audio of course.

But then the options are far too many, and it would get out of control. Leave it as

Authors:Blah
Shmah

[poxpower]

This system was obvious because it is the simplest and most effective way of dealing with the two authors system.

I agree with The_Behemoth: Sizzler's idea would lead to confrontations, but since both authors could say they did an equal part and have their names under "co-producer", I think it would work fine.

A small problem I see though would be fot the user's grades. Since some co-authors might have done a crapier job than the other co-authors, the others might get angry to see that all their hard work raised the grade of someone else. I know this problem is more of a between authors than a newgrounds one, but maybe you could leave the option to have each team member grade the others ( of course this will only happen with 3 or more) so that they receive that percentage of the movie's grade.
Let's say the movie has a B and the author is given a 6/10 average by the others, then is grade would be 60% of a B, whatever that is

Maybe you could make a longer credits list, including Drawings, programming, music, scenario etc. If the projet had a lot of people involved, that way, we will know who did what, making it so that we can congratulate of critique of submitter in particular in the reviews.

As for the problem of having unwanted collaboration links in your profile, just make it so that the people who try to "colaborate" with good artists too often suffer sever sanctions.

I hope that these new changes will encourage people to work together and make ng better

[DizzyBum]

My thoughts:

- Weight all credit equally to all authors. This is to just ensure fairness.

- Create a new user profile option that allows you to block all credit validations, essentially not allowing anyone to credit you for anything. This means that if someone tries to credit you when they submit the flash, they would receive an error saying that you're listed as something like "Going Solo". This would prevent the non-artists of NG (like myself, for the time being) from being bombarded with cheesy credit validations.

That's all I can think of... for now, anyway.

[Taxman2A]

I think this is a great system, and I think it is completely rock solid if you take into account what Unmindful said in his suggestion.

[spookyboy]

Sizzler had a good idea with seperating co-authors and contributor. I fear clock movies coming with 4 co-authors on each movie. Contributor could mabye just give a link to their profile, while co-author would list as one of your movies. Great Itea Tom, Cause both parties should have credit for their work, but there is a lot of messy situations that could arise.

[thougar]

good idea on the whole! it will be good to have credit for a group rather than the only person who posted the flash.

[DarkJaymz]

I luv it. I always wanted to work with someone and share credit and not just have them in the credits. I mean... not many people read them. But just what zipstyke said do you both win the daily pick? Along with the turd of the week and the others?

One suggestion... if we could delete our own movies. I think its only right... but of course there would be guidelines. Sense whenever you submit a flash to NG its theres. And if they dont want it gone then they wont let ya delete it. Like good movies such as Brutality and Ganguro Girl. I dont think they'd want them deleted... but if its a nothing flash or shit that will never be seen again just because its saved or blammed. They might just want it gone. Like a time limit.. if no one views your movie for more than.... a week or 2 its gone... when I said one suggestion at the begining.... I lied...

[Steve84]

this sounds like a great idea and sounds like it will Help most artists

[luka]

Awesome idea!!

[newtype]

awesome. I think its a very well thought out and overall good idea that should mesh nicely with the existing review system.

[UNKNOWN-B]

CIRCLE OF DEATH WILL CURSE YOU!!! BEWARE THE KING OF THE B.L.A.M.S UNDERWORLD AREA.(READ PG. 2 OF TOM FULP'S OBITUARIES PG, I AM THE TRUE PHENOM, IAM THE HELL FIRE AND BRIMSTONE, I AM LOURD OF DARKNESS-X

[Shrapnel]

I really like your new idea Tom.

When the movie is displayed though, just display the name of the submitter and have a button to click that will pop up a window listing the collaborators of the movie to reduce the clutter on the page of the entry.

So the info on the left will look like:

Collaboration sbmitted by: XXXX
(clock to view credits)
Credits would list the MAJOR contributers to the portal entry.

Something like that.

Unmindful has a neat idea to prevent flooding but you won't really know until you try it out.

I like Knott's idea of customizing the credits as well.