Integration of FLAC into Newgrounds

[BlighterProductions]

Basically just exactly what the title says. My question about different formats on Newgrounds was posted last year with some curiosities as to what formats would be suitable to add to the Newgrounds audio portal.

I once suggested AAC, but I feel like the need for lossy formats is pretty non-existent nowadays. Streaming high resolution audio has become available on streaming services worldwide in the last three years. That’s why I think that FLAC, an open source lossless audio container with identical sound quality to the original master, but with roughly 45-55% of the file size of a WAV file, would be the best option.

For example, if you upload a 16-bit/44,1 kHz FLAC file onto the site, it’ll take up around 3,5 to 4 times the storage space that a high bit rate MP3 file would, but the quality of the file will be much higher. Using a WAV format on a website is gonna be less viable because it would be more than twice the size and streaming bit rate of a lossless file.

Anyways, what do you guys think?

[Positron832]

I bet almost no one can reliably tell the difference between a 320 kbps mp3 file from a lossless file, but if Newgrounds allows a maximum file size of 250 MB why not take advantage of it lololol

Honestly I'd prefer if we could upload Vorbis or Opus files since they're better codecs than mp3 but Safari seems to have meh support for it.

[BlighterProductions]

Response to Positron832:

The problem with both formats (OGG Vorbis and OPUS) is that they are both incapable of storing metadata. So crediting a song or filling in titles, artist names and album titles would be impossible, whereas FLAC supports that.

And also, there are legitimately ways to break even the highest bit rate MP3 encoder there is, such as using a pure 20 kHz sine tone or high frequency percussion with short attack and decay times like hi-hats and especially shakers.

I’ve done tests with these, and found that FLAC was audibly more capable at reproducing these tones than MP3 at 320 kbps was. But granted, since most final masters meant for CD’s get cutoff at 20 Hz and 20 kHz, it wouldn’t really matter indeed.

It would still be a nice perk to have FLAC integrated for when it’s actually necessary.

[AED4]

I do agree that FLAC would be super nice to have, but yeah there are the realities of server storage and streaming bandwidth that do kinda hamper the practicality of it's implementation. Not that I know on which kind of data budget NG operates and how big slice of it the Audio Portal consumes, but I imagine the margins are not too wide.

Honestly I was thinking some time ago that being able to upload FLAC files could be a nice supporter perk. That way those who wished to have the additional sound quality would be directly taking part in funding the increased costs. Of course, there's the thing that so far supporters don't have any "technical advantage" when it comes to the portals, and I think it might go against the spirit of newgrounds. And the last thing I'd want to occur is that someone won NGADM because they were able to upload a FLAC while their opponent could only upload MP3 :p

[BlighterProductions]

I think it should not be a supporter exclusive thing at all. And I also think the limit could easily be as high as 48 kHz/24-bit, since any song within reasonable length can easily fit within the currently provided 250 MB upload limit. If we have anything to go off of, I’d say that should probably say enough about the budget and server power Newgrounds currently has.

But I don’t think Newgrounds should go all-Spotify when it comes to the FLAC implementation, because otherwise you just as well might subscribe to Apple Music or so. The whole point of Newgrounds is that it’s free to share your creations with everyone else on the platform.

I honestly also don’t think there will be any ‘technical advantages’, because in a competition, no one looks at the audio quality unless it’s like really low and audibly noticeable, which is never really the case. And song creators can still choose to upload in MP3 if they put a premium tag (or price on lossless files) on their creation themselves, but it should be the creators choice.

I do agree there should be more perks to being a supporter, but letting FLAC be that is not really an option.

[AED4]

Yeah I definitely agree that it ideally shouldn't be locked behind a premium, my take is just a matter of "If that's what it takes then so be it". I kinda assume that because there is still no option for lossless formats there's probably a good technical reason to avoid it :p Also yea those were good points about competitive stuff.

Still regarding file sizes, while yes a FLAC file would easily fit into the file size limit, I have a feeling the limit aint supposed to be utilized fully (or even nearly :p). I presume it's so high mostly to allow for outliers that are not uploaded often, like long podcast episodes or things like the 20th year anniversary collab. Pretty sure the assumption is still that the average submission is in the ballpark of 8mbs or so.

But ultimately I'm just pondering without any actual knowledge. @LD-W would you happen to have anything to add to this convo? I do recall the subject of lossless formats being brought up sometimes in the past, but not sure if anything has changed (and memory's kinda hazy anyways).

[BlighterProductions]

I think they could try it for a test period of, say, 1 month or so (I am not a developer, so I don’t really know how these processes usually go). I would be very excited for it to be added, not gonna lie. 😁

[EvilRaccoon]

I would still upload mp3 for several reasons.

• I don't audibly hear the difference to a 320kbps (okay, I'm older and my hearing isn't what it used to be, but I doubt the average user can).
• The margin of audio quality is not equatable to the sizeable file increase. For that 5% more, the filesize could be 500%.
• The majority, if not a significant portion of users are likely to be on mobile devices, laptops or don't have professional sound systems their computer is connected to. Unless you have studio monitors the issue isn't in the file, it's with the device.
• You're offering up the best quality for someone to rip from, if they choose to steal it and put it on other platforms.
• Bigger file size is costly. For listeners. The higher the file size the greater data for streaming. Those that have poor bandwidth or listening on mobile may have data limitations. In example, if a file in flac is 5 times the size, the amount of music they can listen to xould be lessened, or, it will take longer for them to load a song.
• Comparing to Spotify, or others are not in the same league. You need to go through a publisher to be on them, and they cost with uploads, and so they are used by those within the pro indie and pro sectors. NGs attracts beginners and amateurs (mostly), and the userbase therefore don't need a higher streaming quality than YouTube videos which stream music to millions (typically compressed to mp3 unless you have YTpro).

To me, the factors are too influential for the small marginal gain for the small margin of users, that have the gear to tell the difference.

[Positron832]

At 12/7/23 04:48 PM, BlighterProductions wrote:Response to Positron832:

The problem with both formats (OGG Vorbis and OPUS) is that they are both incapable of storing metadata. So crediting a song or filling in titles, artist names and album titles would be impossible, whereas FLAC supports that.

And also, there are legitimately ways to break even the highest bit rate MP3 encoder there is, such as using a pure 20 kHz sine tone or high frequency percussion with short attack and decay times like hi-hats and especially shakers.

I’ve done tests with these, and found that FLAC was audibly more capable at reproducing these tones than MP3 at 320 kbps was. But granted, since most final masters meant for CD’s get cutoff at 20 Hz and 20 kHz, it wouldn’t really matter indeed.

It would still be a nice perk to have FLAC integrated for when it’s actually necessary.

Vorbis and Opus do support metadata:

I'm also not against FLAC support since Newgrounds allows 250 MB files anyway. I just like small file sizes. Lastly I believe there will always be killer samples for lossy codecs but they are rare enough that they shouldn't be a concern.

[sleepFacingWest]

naw. It'd be a nice feature, but the cost would be astronomical in the long-run and while I'm happy to pay my $2.99 to help support the site, I'm not particularly jazzed about the idea of having to start paying more to offset the cost of something that very few people would actually appreciate. Most of the tracks don't get much play in the long run anyway, so those bigger files will mostly languish on a server somewhere that gets paid for regardless.

Use the audio portal to pimp your wares, but then direct people to where they can find the .flac file that you either keep on a server somewhere or make available through some other service. The fact that NG hosts so much media without demanding subscription fees for access or uploads is pretty awesome. I think we should appreciate this space for what it is and not try to push for features that will cause a financial collapse down the road.

[BlighterProductions]

Vorbis and Opus do support metadata:

Sorry, my bad. OGG Vorbis wouldn’t be a bad choice for an additional codec, since the compression method is way more efficient (even more than AAC, I found), as a 128 kbps OGG file sounds similar quality-wise to a 224 kbps MP3 file.

The thing is though, OGG files are not as common as MP3, and support for Apple devices is, like you said, pretty bad. However, FLAC files could be played on Apple devices. A FLAC file in the app “Files” is playable.

I think we’re kind of stuck in a file size/compatibility dilemma here.

[BlighterProductions]

Response to sleepFacingWest:

Good point, but I remember hearing Tom Fulp talk about plans to add web-friendly WAV support to the site in an earlier post of mine, which should indicate that the site could theoretically afford adding bigger files.

Objectively, files will be larger, but also objectively, quality will be better. Whether that difference is audible will be a subjective thing, but I think it would be an awesome perk that really shouldn’t have to come behind a paywall, and those who choose to upload in FLAC will do so on their own choice. People are still free to upload in MP3.

[sleepFacingWest]

At 12/12/23 07:20 AM, BlighterProductions wrote:it would be an awesome perk that really shouldn’t have to come behind a paywall, and those who choose to upload in FLAC will do so on their own choice. People are still free to upload in MP3.

I think the issue is that, if given the choice, most people will upload uncompressed audio which results in a significantly larger file size than an mp3. FLAC files are ~5x bigger than 320kbps mp3s, and I don't know how you compensate for that influx of necessary data storage space without also needing more money.

If Tom believes they can afford to do that without taking much of a hit, then great! I'm with you...being able to upload uncompressed audio would be awesome. That said, most people are listening to music over phones, bluetooth speakers, ear buds, laptops, and "gamer" setups (most of which compress the audio anyway), so the mild benefits of FLAC over high quality mp3s would be completely lost on the majority of listeners.