Some thoughts on veganism

[TecNoir]

I think there's a lot of intellectual dishonesty when it comes to people addressing veganism. I think there are a lot of misunderstandings that people have about veganism, either purposefully or not. This post is going to talk about some of the logical framework of veganism that I think people don't want to acknowledge.

Just to get this out of the way, I do eat meat, and I own two cats. Now it'll be easier for you to call me out on my hypocrisy when I start validating veganism, because apparently you can't hold a position or belief unless you strictly adhere to it 100% of the time, because you know, humans are perfectly logical and moral human beings.

That being said, the reason this topic is being made is because I notice that on the internet, whenever a vegan comes out and says something, I notice they usually end up getting dog-piled by everyone in the thread. People's complaints about vegans usually end up being related to a couple different points.

1. This vegan is a hypocrite for whatever reason, therefore either meat eating is GOOD, or said vegan CANNOT hold the position that the mass slaughter and consumption of animals is bad.
2. Some appeal to nature. Lions eat meat and its perfectly fine, so why do you hold people up to different standards? Ignoring that for one, we are probably the most evolved species on Earth, and can make all kinds of choices that lions might not be able to, AND that maybe if we lived in small tribes, hunted game to survive out of necessity, that it wouldn't necessarily be outside of a vegan's ideological position.
3. Claiming vegans are nutrient deficient or something. I dunno man, there are a lot of vegans, are they all malnourished? I haven't been convinced.

I'll probably add more to this in follow-up comments.

I eat meat. I enjoy it. It tastes good and brings me comfort. That being said, I do think that our mass slaughter of animals is a disgrace and moral failing of humanity at large. I don't really have the time to make sure that I'm always adhering to veganism, nor is it really realistic. If it came down to societal decisions, through for example, voting, I would gladly act to reduce our system which facilitates countless death on a constant basis.

Anyways, discuss your thoughts on veganism in this topic, preferably while remaining honest and in good faith.

[SecretBoxFox]

I have a respect for people who maintain vegan diets. It’s a big sacrifice for a good cause. The meat industry causes lots of animal suffering and cattle farming is very bad for the environment.

I am not a vegan though because giving up meat would mean giving up almost all of my favorite foods. I need small joys in my life and it’s too much of a sacrifice for something that would barely make a difference. I think this sentiment is shared by most non vegans

My main criticism of veganism is it’s an individual solution to a societal problem. Sure, vegans, as a group, can make difference, but the only way to force change on a large scale would be to offer higher quality meat alternatives or lab grown meat. Luckily, I think we’re making good progress in both of these fields.

I can see a future where lab grown meat is cheaper than natural meat, and McDonalds uses it in their chicken nuggets. This I think is the best solution vegans can hope for.

[EdyKel]

Well, the last vegan topic we had around here was "vegans save the world", and it was nuts.

All, I'm going to say here is that "I love meat".

[Ranger2]

Eating meat isn't inherently unhealthy or immoral, but the world would be better off if we humans did away with it. As long as we don't replace our love for fat with a love for sugar.

[BUM-DRILLER]

At 6/21/22 11:30 AM, SecretBoxFox wrote:I can see a future where lab grown meat is cheaper than natural meat, and McDonalds uses it in their chicken nuggets. This I think is the best solution vegans can hope for.

Let’s just simplify this down to its bare essence: is eating synthetic food better than eating natural food?

[CoJoNo]

A vegan diet generally needs high food miles and intensive agriculture to get the right nutrition which isn’t great.

It’s not how we evolved to live, some people can handle it, others can’t, some people can’t but think they can and get ill, some just function less well than they would otherwise.

A disproportionate number of them are nutty.

I think they can drop the sense of moral superiority and some of them need to get over themselves, but whatever.

[TecNoir]

At 6/21/22 12:28 PM, Co-Jo wrote:A vegan diet generally needs high food miles and intensive agriculture to get the right nutrition which isn’t great.

Source? Moreso than the intensivity to raise and harvest the mass amount if animals we do?

It’s not how we evolved to live, some people can handle it, others can’t, some people can’t but think they can and get ill, some just function less well than they would otherwise.

Appeal to nature

A disproportionate number of them are nutty.

Personal attack

I think they can drop the sense of moral superiority and some of them need to get over themselves, but whatever.

I can literally lay out the shitty arguments people will give, and people still do it lmao. This is peak NPC.

[SecretBoxFox]

At 6/21/22 11:56 AM, BUM-DRILLER wrote:

At 6/21/22 11:30 AM, SecretBoxFox wrote:I can see a future where lab grown meat is cheaper than natural meat, and McDonalds uses it in their chicken nuggets. This I think is the best solution vegans can hope for.

Let’s just simplify this down to its bare essence: is eating synthetic food better than eating natural food?

I’m not sure, it depends on what you mean by “better”. Does it taste as good? As of now, probably not. Does it have a lower environmental impact? Almost certainly. Does it have at least equal nutritional value? I couldn’t tell you.

As this technology improves, synthetic meat will get closer and closer to the real thing. I don’t think it will ever taste better than the real thing, but eventually it might become indistinguishable.

[BUM-DRILLER]

At 6/21/22 12:47 PM, SecretBoxFox wrote:

At 6/21/22 11:56 AM, BUM-DRILLER wrote:

At 6/21/22 11:30 AM, SecretBoxFox wrote:I can see a future where lab grown meat is cheaper than natural meat, and McDonalds uses it in their chicken nuggets. This I think is the best solution vegans can hope for.

Let’s just simplify this down to its bare essence: is eating synthetic food better than eating natural food?

I’m not sure, it depends on what you mean by “better”. Does it taste as good? As of now, probably not. Does it have a lower environmental impact? Almost certainly. Does it have at least equal nutritional value? I couldn’t tell you.

As this technology improves, synthetic meat will get closer and closer to the real thing. I don’t think it will ever taste better than the real thing, but eventually it might become indistinguishable.

I am worried more about the human impact of, over time, ingesting things we were not designed or meant to invest.

[SecretBoxFox]

At 6/21/22 12:58 PM, BUM-DRILLER wrote:

At 6/21/22 12:47 PM, SecretBoxFox wrote:

At 6/21/22 11:56 AM, BUM-DRILLER wrote:

At 6/21/22 11:30 AM, SecretBoxFox wrote:I can see a future where lab grown meat is cheaper than natural meat, and McDonalds uses it in their chicken nuggets. This I think is the best solution vegans can hope for.

Let’s just simplify this down to its bare essence: is eating synthetic food better than eating natural food?

I’m not sure, it depends on what you mean by “better”. Does it taste as good? As of now, probably not. Does it have a lower environmental impact? Almost certainly. Does it have at least equal nutritional value? I couldn’t tell you.

As this technology improves, synthetic meat will get closer and closer to the real thing. I don’t think it will ever taste better than the real thing, but eventually it might become indistinguishable.

I am worried more about the human impact of, over time, ingesting things we were not designed or meant to invest.

I agree with you that this is a valid concern. Personally, I’d wait until peer reviewed studies came out on the safety of lab grown meat before trying it.

However, it’s also worth noting that the meat we eat now contains microplastics, which we don’t fully understand the long term effects of ingesting. Lab grown meat wouldn’t contain these plastics, and could also be a solution to that problem.

[DamnedByFate]

There is no diet that harms nothing and no one.

That said, I'm all for better treatment of animals specifically because I love meat. Happy animals just taste better.

[CoJoNo]

At 6/21/22 12:36 PM, TecNoir wrote:

At 6/21/22 12:28 PM, Co-Jo wrote:A vegan diet generally needs high food miles and intensive agriculture to get the right nutrition which isn’t great.

Source?

https://www.bbcgoodfood.com/howto/guide/best-sources-protein-vegans

At least for someone living living in a more northernish climate that’s high food miles.

Tofu is particularly popular…

https://www.gittemary.com/2021/08/the-environmental-impact-of-soy.html

Moreso than the intensivity to raise and harvest the mass amount if animals we do?

Potentially, maybe, dunno.

It’s not how we evolved to live, some people can handle it, others can’t, some people can’t but think they can and get ill, some just function less well than they would otherwise.

Appeal to nature

Some people can’t handle it, for example I knew a committed vegan who tried to raise her daughter Vegan but ended up feeding her meat just because she wasn’t getting enough of whatever.

A disproportionate number of them are nutty.

Personal attack

true though

I think they can drop the sense of moral superiority and some of them need to get over themselves, but whatever.

I can literally lay out the shitty arguments people will give, and people still do it lmao. This is peak NPC.

Charming.

[AnalPenguinFarming]

I only have any problems with Veganism. I think it’s a lifestyle choice not a political belief. The problem I have with a majority of vegans is that I don’t tear down their lifestyle, but they accuse me of all kinds of things that I’m not.

A majority of people and companies (looking at you PETA) are immoral in other ways. If you’re going to live a perfect lifestyle to defend animals, you should strive to live a better lifestyle as a human being as a whole.

[TurkeyOnAStick]

At 6/21/22 01:33 PM, Co-Jo wrote:

At 6/21/22 12:36 PM, TecNoir wrote:Source?

https://www.bbcgoodfood.com/howto/guide/best-sources-protein-vegans

A disproportionate number of them are nutty.

Personal attack

true though

I can literally lay out the shitty arguments people will give, and people still do it lmao. This is peak NPC.

Charming.

Joe, would you mind taking a break from Politics.

These replies are just crap and I’m fairly sure your trans thread is similar - it’s half-arsed trolling.

[WaffleCrisp]

At 6/21/22 01:30 PM, DamnedByFate wrote:There is no diet that harms nothing and no one.

That said, I'm all for better treatment of animals specifically because I love meat. Happy animals just taste better.

I agree. I eat grass fed and grass finished beef and pasture raised eggs. I eat them because they are more healthy for you. It makes sense, if your food eats healthy then it's healthier for you.

[TecNoir]

At 6/21/22 04:17 PM, AnalPenguinFarming wrote:I only have any problems with Veganism. I think it’s a lifestyle choice not a political belief. The problem I have with a majority of vegans is that I don’t tear down their lifestyle, but they accuse me of all kinds of things that I’m not.

Well part of the problem with that is I would say that it is more than a lifestyle choice. I hate the use of the words relating to politics these days because the actual meaning of language is so clouded that a lot of times people use words that either don't mean what they're supposed to mean, or mean nothing at all.

I would say veganism is an ideology and an understanding of morality. According to these people, humanity is committing mass atrocity by systemically herding and slaughtering millions(billions?) of animals regularly. I think if you look at it from this viewpoint, you'd better understand why some vegans feel the way they do.

A majority of people and companies (looking at you PETA) are immoral in other ways. If you’re going to live a perfect lifestyle to defend animals, you should strive to live a better lifestyle as a human being as a whole.

Again, another example of me literally laying out the arguments that people will make, and they still make them.

"Well...they're hypocrites, so that invalidates their claim!" Regardless of the fact that I don't see just about anybody, vegan or otherwise, defending PETA. Who's to say these people aren't striving to improve themselves in more ways than one?

[orangebomb]

There has been alternatives to regular meat for a while now, but for the most part has largely stalled out because not a lot of people were buying plant-based meats. (Or at least getting new customers) Hard to blame them though, considering that the curiosity factor no longer applies, and from what I’ve heard, the good majority of plant-based meats tasted little better than dog food.

Lab grown meat might be the future, but there is still a lot of skepticism on the whole deal from both from a cost and scientific standpoint, and that’s not including folks who are sketchy on science to begin with.

[RoboHex]

At 6/21/22 04:25 PM, TurkeyOnAStick wrote:

At 6/21/22 01:33 PM, Co-Jo wrote:

At 6/21/22 12:36 PM, TecNoir wrote:Source?

https://www.bbcgoodfood.com/howto/guide/best-sources-protein-vegans

A disproportionate number of them are nutty.

Personal attack

true though

I can literally lay out the shitty arguments people will give, and people still do it lmao. This is peak NPC.

Charming.

Joe, would you mind taking a break from Politics.

These replies are just crap and I’m fairly sure your trans thread is similar - it’s half-arsed trolling.

Finally someone said this out loud.

Thank you!

[Jakal3rdwave]

do vegans know they fart more than the rest of us? do they think it's not stinky?

[AnalPenguinFarming]

At 6/22/22 02:21 PM, orangebomb wrote:Lab grown meat might be the future, but there is still a lot of skepticism on the whole deal from both from a cost and scientific standpoint, and that’s not including folks who are sketchy on science to begin with.

I’m actually all for the lab grown meat side of things. The problem is, you’re right, most of the science deniers and people who want to “see others cry” about things. Grown adults not willing to try new things just to throw it in someone’s face.

I would be more for a vegan diet if it were easier and cheaper to uphold with my current workout regimen. I just can’t get enough protein for a decent price. It’s expensive to maintain a vegan diet and get the calories I need without chugging different vitamins.

[Yomuchan]

At 6/21/22 10:35 AM, TecNoir wrote:Anyways, discuss your thoughts on veganism in this topic, preferably while remaining honest and in good faith.

My thoughts? I think it's all in the mind. At the end of the day, leaves, muscle, innards, fruits, guts and all are just cells, organic materials and reservoirs of nutrients. You are eating chunks of a once-living being either way, and as with all food, should be consumed with the utmost respect and thanked properly afterwards.

Still, I know there's some people who simply don't feel comfortable eating meat. Others have physical aversions to animal products. That's fine, completely understandable. And along with the people who have actual allergies and cannot handle meat products at all due to physical conditions should be given options to ensure that they don't accidentally eat something that doesn't sit right with them.

Now, the nutty 'meat is kaioken x666 evil and all meat eaters must die and I feed my cats vegan stuff and enjoy its suffering for e-points also I'm going to harass you to feel better about myself' types of vegans? Trick'em into eating something made of animal products and have them compliment it's quality and supreme taste, then walk away like a coolguy walking away from an explosion.

[SatanBrain]

At 6/21/22 10:35 AM, TecNoir wrote:That being said, I do think that our mass slaughter of animals is a disgrace and moral failing of humanity at large.

"For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity."

Man is a beast, beasts eat beasts and some beasts even toy with their prey.

[yixaline]

Personally I think that some types of vegans are good people. I myself am against drinking cow milk (DONT ASK WHY). Though there's some weird vegans trying to force you to be vegan I still think there's some hope left in the vegan community

[S3C]

At 6/24/22 01:36 AM, yixaline wrote:I myself am against drinking cow milk

why

[Dolorious]

At 6/21/22 11:30 AM, SecretBoxFox wrote:I have a respect for people who maintain vegan diets. It’s a big sacrifice for a good cause. The meat industry causes lots of animal suffering and cattle farming is very bad for the environment.

I am not a vegan though because giving up meat would mean giving up almost all of my favorite foods. I need small joys in my life and it’s too much of a sacrifice for something that would barely make a difference. I think this sentiment is shared by most non vegans

My main criticism of veganism is it’s an individual solution to a societal problem. Sure, vegans, as a group, can make difference, but the only way to force change on a large scale would be to offer higher quality meat alternatives or lab grown meat. Luckily, I think we’re making good progress in both of these fields.
I can see a future where lab grown meat is cheaper than natural meat, and McDonalds uses it in their chicken nuggets. This I think is the best solution vegans can hope for.

The ideal solution would be fuck off out of the concrete jungles and go fishing and hunting instead. That or a nice and proper farm. Not whatever shitty facilities with horrid conditions where you just throw in a bunch of growth hormones or whatever the shit is called. China is one of the worse offenders. They straight up keep the animals alive for as long as possible while carving bits of flesh off of them. All for "medicinal purposes" or because it "taste better". Fucking hell if you're going to eat me, at least have the courtesy to give me a swift death.

Also about the lab grown meat. It's been a while, but last time I checked, it needed fetal cells to allow it to grow. Which defeats the whole point of it. Plus there's a whole lot shit that can go wrong with just growing flesh like that. Manmade horrors beyond imagination...

I say a decent alternative would be to simply grow and eat mushrooms. Mushrooms are fucking weird, I think they have protein? They're like that weird middle ground of plant and meat. Not exactly plant, but exactly flesh either. Either way, it's possibly a good candidate for fueling the body. Well and possibly more than that depending on the mushroom.

[SecretBoxFox]

At 6/24/22 02:29 AM, Dolorious wrote:The ideal solution would be fuck off out of the concrete jungles and go fishing and hunting instead.

I meant the best that they could hope for out of the solutions that have any chance of happening

It's been a while, but last time I checked, it needed fetal cells to allow it to grow.

Source?

I say a decent alternative would be to simply grow and eat mushrooms. Mushrooms are fucking weird, I think they have protein? They're like that weird middle ground of plant and meat. Not exactly plant, but exactly flesh either. Either way, it's possibly a good candidate for fueling the body. Well and possibly more than that depending on the mushroom.

The problem with that plan is that I think mushrooms are gross, and so do a lot of other people. Even for the people who do like them, I doubt many would say they’re a proper replacement for meat. I doubt a mushroom burger would sell better than your average veggie burger

[Dolorious]

At 6/24/22 03:49 AM, SecretBoxFox wrote:

At 6/24/22 02:29 AM, Dolorious wrote:The ideal solution would be fuck off out of the concrete jungles and go fishing and hunting instead.

I meant the best that they could hope for out of the solutions that have any chance of happening

It's been a while, but last time I checked, it needed fetal cells to allow it to grow.

Source?

I say a decent alternative would be to simply grow and eat mushrooms. Mushrooms are fucking weird, I think they have protein? They're like that weird middle ground of plant and meat. Not exactly plant, but exactly flesh either. Either way, it's possibly a good candidate for fueling the body. Well and possibly more than that depending on the mushroom.

The problem with that plan is that I think mushrooms are gross, and so do a lot of other people. Even for the people who do like them, I doubt many would say they’re a proper replacement for meat. I doubt a mushroom burger would sell better than your average veggie burger

Like I said it was a few years ago, it was a glaring flaw. Fetal bovine serum is what it's called I'm pretty sure. Something to do with trying to grow the meat something in it stopping the growth and the serum was needed to disable that mechanism that stops it. But that was discussed several years ago.

edit: Supposedly they found a medium (heh) to it. But then even I don't think it would be a good idea to just be growing flesh like that. It's bordering on the level of fucked with human/pig chimeras.

edit 2: Mushrooms are delicious you take that back! Yeah I get not everybody likes mushrooms, but it's a decent option.

[Gimmick]

At 6/23/22 08:52 PM, AnalPenguinFarming wrote:I would be more for a vegan diet if it were easier and cheaper to uphold with my current workout regimen. I just can’t get enough protein for a decent price. It’s expensive to maintain a vegan diet and get the calories I need without chugging different vitamins.

?

Barring major subsidies for meat or some wacko food desert sitution, vegetables are pretty much always going to be cheaper than meat for the same amount of nutrients.

Like, kidney beans have similar protein content to canned tuna (both 24%), except canned tuna is about twice as costly as kidney beans where I'm at. That's assuming the water it comes in also has protein which is obviously not right, so the canned tuna is probably more than twice as costly as the beans for the same amount of protein.

Or take chicken breast - that's about $2 for 100g (i.e. 23g of protein), which is about 4x the price of beans for the same amount. And it makes sense that it's costlier because you're eating animals which themselves ate plants, or ate something that ate plants, so you're paying for the cost of the feed as well.

[Bertn1991]

Very thoughtful take. I like it. The animal cruelty is abhorrent, but I would judge the industry more than the consumer. I'm not leading a protest into my neighbor's backyard barbecue any time soon. I'm a vegetarian myself, not for any special reason, I just enjoy it. I have no issue with other people eating meat. Meat is great.

[DamnedByFate]

At 6/24/22 01:36 AM, yixaline wrote:Personally I think that some types of vegans are good people. I myself am against drinking cow milk (DONT ASK WHY).

A life without cheese is a life not worth living.