At 4/29/23 01:05 AM, TreasurePlanet wrote:It depends on what you mean by "sugarcoating"

I think its best (and most accurate/truthful) to share something that they are doing well and then something they can work on.

If they keep improving the "good" aspects of their drawings then they will improve! So pointing out the "bad" parts and being harsh doesnt make sense.

At 4/29/23 01:09 AM, picolocity366 wrote:

At 4/29/23 01:05 AM, TreasurePlanet wrote:It depends on what you mean by "sugarcoating"

I think its best (and most accurate/truthful) to share something that they are doing well and then something they can work on.

If they keep improving the "good" aspects of their drawings then they will improve! So pointing out the "bad" parts and being harsh doesnt make sense.

I get that! Really I do. It's nice to get a unique perspective on topics as broad as this, and I totally get where you're coming from. But I personally think that it's necessary to reiterate the worst parts of something in order to exemplify the best parts, you know? Maybe that's just a me thing though.

At 4/29/23 06:55 AM, TreasurePlanet wrote:

At 4/29/23 01:09 AM, picolocity366 wrote:

At 4/29/23 01:05 AM, TreasurePlanet wrote:It depends on what you mean by "sugarcoating"

I think its best (and most accurate/truthful) to share something that they are doing well and then something they can work on.

If they keep improving the "good" aspects of their drawings then they will improve! So pointing out the "bad" parts and being harsh doesnt make sense.

I get that! Really I do. It's nice to get a unique perspective on topics as broad as this, and I totally get where you're coming from. But I personally think that it's necessary to reiterate the worst parts of something in order to exemplify the best parts, you know? Maybe that's just a me thing though.

Yeah I can see that. I think the main thing is that I dont want to cause damage or discourage anyone from drawing.

The only thing that stops an artist from creating is the inner critic, and I've seen that take out like a hundred artists atleast.

i really like @Flikki 's words of "bedside manner" thats hella true sometimes lol

I dont think you should change your style of critique if you dont want to! As we learn to draw we also learn how to become teachers.

At 4/29/23 12:17 AM, picolocity366 wrote:Sorry for the extra thread but I gotta get this off my chest
I get that it can be discouraging to the initial artist who made the art in question, but that more times than not doesn't help the artist improve; it makes them stagnate more than anything. I should know, because it happened to me. It's only thanks to the BBS that my art actually improved for the better.

At 4/29/23 09:40 AM, Oddlem wrote:I get what you mean, and it frustrates me too. I have seen people draw literal stock figures, ask for critique, and then people will just say “you’re doing good!” and nothing else.

while I get that it’s important to balance good points with bad, yes I’m with you for the people that ONLY give good, sugarcoat-y critique (not even objective good, just vague compliments). I don’t think those people are helping anybody and I can only hope that people receiving this kind of critique recognizes that

At 4/29/23 11:42 AM, OnixDark wrote:

At 4/29/23 09:40 AM, Oddlem wrote:I get what you mean, and it frustrates me too. I have seen people draw literal stock figures, ask for critique, and then people will just say “you’re doing good!” and nothing else.

while I get that it’s important to balance good points with bad, yes I’m with you for the people that ONLY give good, sugarcoat-y critique (not even objective good, just vague compliments). I don’t think those people are helping anybody and I can only hope that people receiving this kind of critique recognizes that

I'm probably just reiterating what you said, but if people just say “you’re doing good!” and nothing else, that's not sugar coated criticism, that's just a compliment. can we please stop calling vague compliments and insults criticism?

if you say "you're doing good" or "your piece sucks" that is not criticism, that's just the comenter's opinion and it says nothing about the piece.
but if you say "you have a good grasp of anatomy and perspective" or "you strokes show hesitation and you need to study color theory", THAT is criticism because it points out what the person is good and/or bad at, as well as what they need to focus on if they wish to improve.

I'd imagine sugar-coated criticism to be something like: "you're bad at <insert skill name here> but nobody cares about <skill's result> or even notice when it's off without placing it in an image editor and dissecating the piece, so don't worry about bothering to improve because you're good enough already"

At 4/29/23 12:05 PM, Oddlem wrote:When someone makes a thread asking for criticism and people don't respond with actual criticism, is that helpful? That's what I was referring to, regardless of what it can be called. I'm not talking about people starting an art thread and people give a compliment, I'm not against compliments and my point isn't to debate on what the definition of sugarcoating or criticism is 👀 The bottom line is that I don't think the type of responses I was referring to are helpful to people who ask for honest opinions on what they should improve on

At 4/29/23 05:15 PM, Shadud wrote:I've given this thread an awful lot of thought, but I've realized I don't really know what you're talking about. I'd need a very specific example of a critique you had a problem with in order to adequately weigh in. It sounds to me that we're not talking about critique at all, which is a very specific process with a certain decorum to it, but rather people just offering polite feedback.

At 4/29/23 06:38 PM, wonkypaws wrote:

At 4/29/23 05:15 PM, Shadud wrote:I've given this thread an awful lot of thought, but I've realized I don't really know what you're talking about. I'd need a very specific example of a critique you had a problem with in order to adequately weigh in. It sounds to me that we're not talking about critique at all, which is a very specific process with a certain decorum to it, but rather people just offering polite feedback.

i second this,,, personally i have a hard time understanding stuff even if it’s simple, so maybe that might be a part of it, but im not entirely sure what you mean here

At 4/29/23 10:13 AM, Thetageist wrote:

At 4/29/23 12:17 AM, picolocity366 wrote:Sorry for the extra thread but I gotta get this off my chest
I get that it can be discouraging to the initial artist who made the art in question, but that more times than not doesn't help the artist improve; it makes them stagnate more than anything. I should know, because it happened to me. It's only thanks to the BBS that my art actually improved for the better.

Qualifier: It’s also important to try to “read the room” if you can with regards to the artist, and figure out whether they’re seeking critiques, are happy just stagnating, or are in between and just aren’t aware of what they don’t know. When in doubt, I word it in a way that makes it sound like it’s not a big problem, or nudge them into practicing or experimenting with whatever I feel is amiss.

I can also speak from experience. I was one of the happily stagnant ones for years, and only learned via gradual absorption of new techniques and style changes. While I regret not making more active efforts to improve, I also see why trying to take art seriously would’ve made small Theta’s awful self esteem even worse in the process, hah!

At 4/29/23 06:58 PM, picolocity366 wrote:

At 4/29/23 06:38 PM, wonkypaws wrote:

At 4/29/23 05:15 PM, Shadud wrote:I've given this thread an awful lot of thought, but I've realized I don't really know what you're talking about. I'd need a very specific example of a critique you had a problem with in order to adequately weigh in. It sounds to me that we're not talking about critique at all, which is a very specific process with a certain decorum to it, but rather people just offering polite feedback.

i second this,,, personally i have a hard time understanding stuff even if it’s simple, so maybe that might be a part of it, but im not entirely sure what you mean here

I can't really state any specific examples, but the nitty griddy is basically that many people don't give their true thoughts or critiques on pieces more "amateurish" (I'm using this term very loosely here so stay with me) in fear that they'll hurt the feelings of the artist who made it. I've been there many times myself whether with with friends or mutuals I won't name here, but it's a real thing that I don't see talked about often.

At 4/29/23 07:03 PM, wonkypaws wrote:

At 4/29/23 06:58 PM, picolocity366 wrote:

At 4/29/23 06:38 PM, wonkypaws wrote:

At 4/29/23 05:15 PM, Shadud wrote:I've given this thread an awful lot of thought, but I've realized I don't really know what you're talking about. I'd need a very specific example of a critique you had a problem with in order to adequately weigh in. It sounds to me that we're not talking about critique at all, which is a very specific process with a certain decorum to it, but rather people just offering polite feedback.

i second this,,, personally i have a hard time understanding stuff even if it’s simple, so maybe that might be a part of it, but im not entirely sure what you mean here

I can't really state any specific examples, but the nitty griddy is basically that many people don't give their true thoughts or critiques on pieces more "amateurish" (I'm using this term very loosely here so stay with me) in fear that they'll hurt the feelings of the artist who made it. I've been there many times myself whether with with friends or mutuals I won't name here, but it's a real thing that I don't see talked about often.

ahhhh i think i understand now. i agree with you
sometimes we need the harsh truth in order to improve, but at the same time, people shouldn’t be insulting you. there needs to be a balance
i personally like to point out things that i enjoy about the drawing first, and then i get into what needs to be improved and why, while trying to keep my wording gentle without being demeaning. for example, “i love your rendering style and how you use shapes! but i think the anatomy needs some work” etc etc

At 4/29/23 06:58 PM, picolocity366 wrote:

At 4/29/23 06:38 PM, wonkypaws wrote:

At 4/29/23 05:15 PM, Shadud wrote:I've given this thread an awful lot of thought, but I've realized I don't really know what you're talking about. I'd need a very specific example of a critique you had a problem with in order to adequately weigh in. It sounds to me that we're not talking about critique at all, which is a very specific process with a certain decorum to it, but rather people just offering polite feedback.

i second this,,, personally i have a hard time understanding stuff even if it’s simple, so maybe that might be a part of it, but im not entirely sure what you mean here

I can't really state any specific examples, but the nitty griddy is basically that many people don't give their true thoughts or critiques on pieces more "amateurish" (I'm using this term very loosely here so stay with me) in fear that they'll hurt the feelings of the artist who made it. I've been there many times myself whether with with friends or mutuals I won't name here, but it's a real thing that I don't see talked about often.

At 4/29/23 08:40 PM, Shadud wrote:Artists have to learn how to disregard invalid critiques, too, you do that by understanding what a critique actually is.

Offering critique is a skill in itself, and many artists are still fermenting their knowledge so it's not always easy to translate what they have learned to do in their own work into language they can use to help others improve their own skills. That's why things like the critical response process exist.

If they're having a hard time critiquing a junior artist then it's either they don't want to critique at all, which is valid, or they're still developing the ability to critique.

At 4/29/23 12:17 AM, picolocity366 wrote:Sorry for the extra thread but I gotta get this off my chest
Am I the only one tired of people dumbing down or sugarcoating their critique of other people's art for the sake of making them feel better? I get that it can be discouraging to the initial artist who made the art in question, but that more times than not doesn't help the artist improve; it makes them stagnate more than anything. I should know, because it happened to me. It's only thanks to the BBS that my art actually improved for the better.
Am I being too harsh here? What are your guys' thoughts on this?

At 4/29/23 12:05 PM, Oddlem wrote:

At 4/29/23 11:42 AM, OnixDark wrote:

At 4/29/23 09:40 AM, Oddlem wrote:I get what you mean, and it frustrates me too. I have seen people draw literal stock figures, ask for critique, and then people will just say “you’re doing good!” and nothing else.

while I get that it’s important to balance good points with bad, yes I’m with you for the people that ONLY give good, sugarcoat-y critique (not even objective good, just vague compliments). I don’t think those people are helping anybody and I can only hope that people receiving this kind of critique recognizes that

I'm probably just reiterating what you said, but if people just say “you’re doing good!” and nothing else, that's not sugar coated criticism, that's just a compliment. can we please stop calling vague compliments and insults criticism?

if you say "you're doing good" or "your piece sucks" that is not criticism, that's just the comenter's opinion and it says nothing about the piece.
but if you say "you have a good grasp of anatomy and perspective" or "you strokes show hesitation and you need to study color theory", THAT is criticism because it points out what the person is good and/or bad at, as well as what they need to focus on if they wish to improve.

I'd imagine sugar-coated criticism to be something like: "you're bad at <insert skill name here> but nobody cares about <skill's result> or even notice when it's off without placing it in an image editor and dissecating the piece, so don't worry about bothering to improve because you're good enough already"

When someone makes a thread asking for criticism and people don't respond with actual criticism, is that helpful? That's what I was referring to, regardless of what it can be called. I'm not talking about people starting an art thread and people give a compliment, I'm not against compliments and my point isn't to debate on what the definition of sugarcoating or criticism is 👀 The bottom line is that I don't think the type of responses I was referring to are helpful to people who ask for honest opinions on what they should improve on

At 4/30/23 10:49 AM, OnixDark wrote:

At 4/29/23 12:05 PM, Oddlem wrote:

At 4/29/23 11:42 AM, OnixDark wrote:

At 4/29/23 09:40 AM, Oddlem wrote:I get what you mean, and it frustrates me too. I have seen people draw literal stock figures, ask for critique, and then people will just say “you’re doing good!” and nothing else.

while I get that it’s important to balance good points with bad, yes I’m with you for the people that ONLY give good, sugarcoat-y critique (not even objective good, just vague compliments). I don’t think those people are helping anybody and I can only hope that people receiving this kind of critique recognizes that

I'm probably just reiterating what you said, but if people just say “you’re doing good!” and nothing else, that's not sugar coated criticism, that's just a compliment. can we please stop calling vague compliments and insults criticism?

if you say "you're doing good" or "your piece sucks" that is not criticism, that's just the comenter's opinion and it says nothing about the piece.
but if you say "you have a good grasp of anatomy and perspective" or "you strokes show hesitation and you need to study color theory", THAT is criticism because it points out what the person is good and/or bad at, as well as what they need to focus on if they wish to improve.

I'd imagine sugar-coated criticism to be something like: "you're bad at <insert skill name here> but nobody cares about <skill's result> or even notice when it's off without placing it in an image editor and dissecating the piece, so don't worry about bothering to improve because you're good enough already"

When someone makes a thread asking for criticism and people don't respond with actual criticism, is that helpful? That's what I was referring to, regardless of what it can be called. I'm not talking about people starting an art thread and people give a compliment, I'm not against compliments and my point isn't to debate on what the definition of sugarcoating or criticism is 👀 The bottom line is that I don't think the type of responses I was referring to are helpful to people who ask for honest opinions on what they should improve on

agreed. seems like the "critics" don't know what criticism means and it doesn't help the people who want/need it

At 4/29/23 09:40 AM, Oddlem wrote:I get what you mean, and it frustrates me too. I have seen people draw literal stock figures, ask for critique, and then people will just say “you’re doing good!” and nothing else.

while I get that it’s important to balance good points with bad, yes I’m with you for the people that ONLY give good, sugarcoat-y critique (not even objective good, just vague compliments). I don’t think those people are helping anybody and I can only hope that people receiving this kind of critique recognizes that