At 2/12/22 05:12 AM, Curta1nsJoebychoice wrote: The people of Crimea overwhelmingly want to be part of Russia and as I said Sevastopol is vital to Russia, so I don’t think that invasion is indicative of Russian ambitions elsewhere.
Do they? Do the Crimean Tatars really want to be part of Russia?
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At 2/12/22 06:49 AM, Tony-DarkGrave wrote: It doesn't help that Germany are being complete cowards about it too
Russian gas is cheap. This is a purely economic decision.
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At 2/12/22 09:41 AM, DamnedByFate wrote:
Russian gas is cheap. This is a purely economic decision.
Just call it what it is germany being cowards that Daddy Putin will turn off the gas if Germany gets involved. Germany proving once again its the least reliable member in NATO.
At 2/12/22 11:43 AM, Tony-DarkGrave wrote:At 2/12/22 09:41 AM, DamnedByFate wrote:Just call it what it is germany being cowards that Daddy Putin will turn off the gas if Germany gets involved. Germany proving once again its the least reliable member in NATO.
Russian gas is cheap. This is a purely economic decision.
If Putin turns off the gas, we'll have to get our gas from somewhere else and pay more. Which we don't want. That's what you get for exporting your way of life.
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At 2/12/22 05:12 AM, Curta1nsJoebychoice wrote:At 2/11/22 08:14 PM, Gario wrote:The relationship between Russia and NATO and Russia, Ukraine and the west goes back much further.
basically started about a year ago when biden said he would be open to ukraine joining nato, if they so chose to join it
we're talking about the current tensions, here
Their are no natural barriers between Eastern Europe and European Russia.
This has meant for all of history there have been waves of invaders coming from the west, most recently during World War Two
where Russia lost 20 million people and saw complete or partial destruction of 1,710 cities and towns, 70,000 villages/hamlets, and 31,850 industrial establishments.
literally none of this matters
not since russia became a nuclear superpower
no one is going to invade russia anymore, not even other nuclear superpowers, and putin knows this based on his own language around his nuclear capabilities
So it’s not without cause that Putin objects to the prospect of them joining a hostile, interventionalist alliance cum suicide pact dominated by America, that was specifically set up to combat Russia.
once again, what is nato going to do, invade russia?
they will respond to russia expanding their territory into any of their associated states, sure - but that's overwhelmingly a good thing
Even America that only has two land neighbours neither of which pose any threat whatsoever still intervenes in what it regards as It’s Latin American “backyard”.
sure
and it ain't our business who they decide to align themselves with, though we'd probably economically punish them if they did something we didn't like
maybe russia should go down that path, instead
Furthermore if Russia should lose the port of Sevastopol it would be economically devastated it being the only port it has access to that is operable in the winter, which naturally increases their sensitivity in the region.
that isn't their fucking port
Along with the ongoing dispute over Crimea their is the Donbas war, which is not only in Russia’s “backyard”, but right up against their back door.
that ain't their business
though expect to hear about ukraine forces hurting russia's forces while fighting their enemies in the donbas war, or something, russia is looking for an excuse to invade ukraine atm
Using brinkmanship to encourage de-escalation is an effective technique
this is true and in fact what nato is doing when responding to russia's military build-up with a show of force on ukraine's other borders
you do not get to say you encourage de-escalation when you started the military build-up
if you were in Putins shoes what else could you sensibly do, while maintaining Russia’s security and keeping face?
ask for a petty demand that nato could satisfy so that he can pull out while saving face
kicking out half of eastern europe from nato is not a petty demand - that's actually insanely unreasonable
That would be a valid argument if they were allying themselves with say Norway or Switzerland.
However NATO and NATO’s key players have never respected national sovereignty, so by the rules of engagement that NATO themselves have set, then it is fair.
this has nothing to do with whether ukraine is allowed to align themselves with whomever they want
russia's not the goddamn world police, if ukraine wants to side with something that could hurt them that's their business
The people of Crimea overwhelmingly want to be part of Russia and as I said Sevastopol is vital to Russia, so I don’t think that invasion is indicative of Russian ambitions elsewhere.
"but russia really wanted it" isn't an excuse for invading a country, you psychopath
russia really wants ukraine to function as a satellite buffer state to nato, is that a good enough reason to invade and take over ukraine, too?
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At 2/11/22 11:46 PM, DioShiba wrote:At 2/11/22 09:35 PM, GenericDungeonSlime wrote: Every dollar wasted on military nonsense that could have gone into improving the quality of domestic medicine, education, production, environmental management, etc. is a massive deal, actually.As much as I understand what you are saying, it still comes down to the fact that the US is still a part of NATO and has to play it's part in that alliance. It's not as simple as the US saying "nope, we don't want part in this" as much as it is the fact that they still have to aid European countries on this.
And to answer your other question, the quest for NATO expansionism all the way to Russias borders. If you don't see why that is a provocation, or will be seen as such, it doesn't really matter which, I dunno what to tell you.
And to just add to this, there is nothing that galls me more then the idea of sending some young southern conservative kids to die for the empire when they have made it all but illegal to be themselves in public life or in any other institution. Like, how dare you, you absolute rats lmao
I also get what you're saying about Putin's concerns, at the same time the Ukrainian people do in fact want to be a part of NATO, But NATO hasn't offered it to them for a few reasons and official corruption in their government is one of them. and the only thing that's really going on at this time is simply an alliance that got strengthened only because of the 2014 Crimean Peninsula incident and Russia's annexation it. Because of that incident most countries in Eastern Europe have good reason to distrust Putin's word that he won't invade Ukraine because of his actions.
I respect your position, and on some level I agree that you can't just rip up alliances and treaties, keeping to your oath is as much a long term strategy for confidence in your state as much as it is a point of honor. I just don't think those agreements should ever have been made, and I would pursue an exit strategy if I were in charge.
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At 2/12/22 06:43 PM, GenericDungeonSlime wrote:At 2/11/22 11:46 PM, DioShiba wrote:I respect your position, and on some level I agree that you can't just rip up alliances and treaties, keeping to your oath is as much a long term strategy for confidence in your state as much as it is a point of honor. I just don't think those agreements should ever have been made, and I would pursue an exit strategy if I were in charge.At 2/11/22 09:35 PM, GenericDungeonSlime wrote: Every dollar wasted on military nonsense that could have gone into improving the quality of domestic medicine, education, production, environmental management, etc. is a massive deal, actually.As much as I understand what you are saying, it still comes down to the fact that the US is still a part of NATO and has to play it's part in that alliance. It's not as simple as the US saying "nope, we don't want part in this" as much as it is the fact that they still have to aid European countries on this.
And to answer your other question, the quest for NATO expansionism all the way to Russias borders. If you don't see why that is a provocation, or will be seen as such, it doesn't really matter which, I dunno what to tell you.
And to just add to this, there is nothing that galls me more then the idea of sending some young southern conservative kids to die for the empire when they have made it all but illegal to be themselves in public life or in any other institution. Like, how dare you, you absolute rats lmao
I also get what you're saying about Putin's concerns, at the same time the Ukrainian people do in fact want to be a part of NATO, But NATO hasn't offered it to them for a few reasons and official corruption in their government is one of them. and the only thing that's really going on at this time is simply an alliance that got strengthened only because of the 2014 Crimean Peninsula incident and Russia's annexation it. Because of that incident most countries in Eastern Europe have good reason to distrust Putin's word that he won't invade Ukraine because of his actions.
If an exit strategy could be pursued reasonably, then it probably would have happened by now. Hell I know that Trump wanted out of NATO for some time before Biden came into place.
The thing is I don't think that there is a reasonable way to get an exit strategy into place without any actual consequences that could affect both the States and the NATO nations. If it does happen I wouldn't put it past Russia to invade Ukraine in that situation either and then that puts NATO in their cross hairs and the States could potentially lose trade agreements from the countries involved in the latter.
It's a fickle situation at this point.
found a lovely video that goes through the history of ukrainian - russian relations over the last eight years or so
pretty good video, if you have 40 minutes to spare
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At 2/12/22 12:34 PM, DamnedByFate wrote: If Putin turns off the gas, we'll have to get our gas from somewhere else and pay more. Which we don't want, that's what you get for exporting your way of life.
Which is effecting NATO allies because your being cucks about this, its hilarious seeing Germans on reddit trying to justify not getting involved or paying their fair share of NATO funding.
Just admit you aren't getting involved with Ukraine because your afraid of daddy Putin turning off the tap.
At 2/13/22 05:39 AM, Tony-DarkGrave wrote: Which is effecting NATO allies because your being cucks about this, its hilarious seeing Germans on reddit trying to justify not getting involved or paying their fair share of NATO funding.
All NATO did for us recently was drag us into a pointless war on a completely different continent. Forgive me for having lost all faith in it.
Also, watch your grammar.
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At 2/14/22 08:05 PM, FireWaffle wrote: I have but one simple question to all the people who are so sure that a ww3 is coming: do you have any idea about how the first two world wars started or are you fear-mongering for fun? Because it’s one thing to throw (stupid) theories around, it’s another to troll over something this serious.
There were always multiple factors to when a World War did start with the first two and that ain't gonna change anytime soon.
The question comes down to what conflicts will lead to that and there's too many variables that can be speculated into that situation should it ever occur. That's why I'd rather avoid playing guessing games on that matter and keep it specific to the Russo-NATO relations at bear minimum.
At 2/14/22 08:05 PM, FireWaffle wrote: I have but one simple question to all the people who are so sure that a ww3 is coming: do you have any idea about how the first two world wars started or are you fear-mongering for fun? Because it’s one thing to throw (stupid) theories around, it’s another to troll over something this serious.
World War One started because Germany was convinced France and Russia would declare war on them and they wouldn’t have a chance unless they took the first move.
World War Two started their way it did because Stalin knew Hitler wanted to invade, and after asking for support from Europe in the event of an invasion and being refused, signed the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact that let them both have half of Poland.
Because of allied blockades Nazi Germany could only get the fuel for the Blitzkrieg from the USSR.
Both wars started with powerful countries feeling that they had their backs up against the wall.
Same thing with the Napoleonic wars.
At 2/14/22 08:05 PM, FireWaffle wrote: I have but one simple question to all the people who are so sure that a ww3 is coming: do you have any idea about how the first two world wars started or are you fear-mongering for fun? Because it’s one thing to throw (stupid) theories around, it’s another to troll over something this serious.
this will not cause a world war, ukraine is not a part of NATO
russia invading a NATO country would cause a world war, but for all his bluster i don't think putin is that stupid
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I watched Vaushes stream with Kyle Kulinski defending NATO like wasn,t made because of his ideology than again he is American so.
At 2/15/22 01:25 PM, Gario wrote:
this will not cause a world war, ukraine is not a part of NATO
russia invading a NATO country would cause a world war, but for all his bluster i don't think putin is that stupid
That's because Putin is being the whiny Russian bitch that he is, he put a kibosh on it because Ukraine wanted to join the EU and NATO.
If they do invade America is going to get involved aid and troops are already there and it will push Finland and Sweden to NATO which are west to Russia which it already is leaving St. Petersburg and its Baltic access vulnerable.
And Georgia and Azerbaijan want to join the EU and NATO and are already on the path on doing so in the 2025-30ish area and they are south of Russia which could provoke another session of Chechen independence which Russia has to put down regularly and them join NATO would give us access to the Caspian Sea and the heart of Russia and CTSO countries and their military movements and getting Turkey EU Membership should be a priority despite what those morons in Germany say going on about "human rights" and not being "European enough" because Turkey joining the Eu and adopting the Euro would bolster the Eurozone economy exponentially.
What should also be done is blockade Russian military vessels this can be done with Turkey as a NATO and their waterway the Strait of Istanbul then another blockade where Denmark is as a NATO member, and if Russia invades then do it for ALL RUSSIAN VESSELS that would cripple their economy with no direct access to the Atlantic Ocean and the Mediterranean Sea.
That's what Biden and the EU should be pushing for it'll deincentize Putin and the Russian economy to the point they can't fight just like the USSR.
At 2/15/22 03:23 AM, Curta1nsJoebychoice wrote:At 2/14/22 08:05 PM, FireWaffle wrote: I have but one simple question to all the people who are so sure that a ww3 is coming: do you have any idea about how the first two world wars started or are you fear-mongering for fun? Because it’s one thing to throw (stupid) theories around, it’s another to troll over something this serious.World War One started because Germany was convinced France and Russia would declare war on them and they wouldn’t have a chance unless they took the first move.
While that’s fine and dandy if you want an over-simplification of It, there were at least five to six causes to WWI. A google search on this will tell you exactly each factor leading up to it.
yes, alliances between Russia and France happened, but that is only but one cause.
World War Two started their way it did because Stalin knew Hitler wanted to invade, and after asking for support from Europe in the event of an invasion and being refused, signed the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact that let them both have half of Poland.
Because of allied blockades Nazi Germany could only get the fuel for the Blitzkrieg from the USSR.
Again, only one cause if it isn’t an over-simplification. It is true that Nazi-Germany wanted to take countries left and right and Russia wasn’t having any of that, take into consideration that the majority of the world was hit by the Great Depression, and international trade came to a halt. this affected every country in some way.
Since Germany became desperate since they were the ones punished severely after the 1st WW due to the treaty of Versailles and had a choice between Communism and Hitler’s Ideology of extreme form of nationalism under the misleading guise of what is called “National Socialism”. Since the world tried to appease them by giving what they wanted up until they tried fucking with Russia, well you know the rest. You also have Buento Mussolini who was a complete fascist in Italy which came into power too. He essentially helped form the Axis coalition with Hitler and this is putting aside the migration crisis that was happening because of what was going on in these countries.
This forced Britain, Russia, and France to ally with each other for sure, but there is more.
Also, after the Russo-Japanese war, Imperial Japan was a problem too. They invaded Manchuria, China, and had the balls to drag the US into it by bombing Pearl Harbor because the United States stopped trading with them. This wasn’t before the axis coalition between Japan, Italy, and Germany at the time too.
Its not that you are wrong, but a world war is not caused by one thing. There are multiple causes to them. If history repeats itself then that would be the case for WWIII if it does come to pass, but there are too many things up in the air that could be speculated on that are not concrete enough to have a solid backing to say it’s happening.
Okay here's what I understand...... Ukraine wanted to get a trade deal with the EU (which failed) then vladdy sperged out and started a regime change which also failed then vladdy started sending Russian paramilitaries to wreck the Crimea region.............and this is some how the fault of the west?
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All of this hinges on the Russian supposition that Ukraine is about to join NATO, which it isn't. Nobody with the power to bring Ukraine into NATO wants to, so the trillion dollar question is "how do you convince a mad king that his delusions aren't even plausible enough to justify 'preventative measures'." The exchange so far has been:
Russia: You guys are conspiring to make Ukraine a NATO stronghold just because we had a little bitty annexation of Crimea. No fair, you're totally forcing my hand here. This is self defense.
NATO: We are not admitting Ukraine into NATO. Tell us what you actually want so we don't have to prepare for an invasion.
Russia: You're lying, stop making them part of the Russia Stinks Club. I'm gonna tell China you're gaslighting me on Tiktok and I bet they'll ban another video game or something, that'll show you.
Most of the world: *Prepares to expel an invasion*
Russia: You guys are such fucking bullies, I swear.
Germany: wow, what a great nap I just had!
The situation feels like a show almost. It's been going on for a month or two right? Makes me wonder if they're purposefully trying to keep peoples eyes peeled on that... But that's just my take on it. It might not be a show and shit is about to go down. Just got to wait and see as per usual.
At 2/15/22 08:54 PM, DioShiba wrote:At 2/15/22 03:23 AM, Curta1nsJoebychoice wrote:While that’s fine and dandy if you want an over-simplification of It, there were at least five to six causes to WWI. A google search on this will tell you exactly each factor leading up to it.At 2/14/22 08:05 PM, FireWaffle wrote: I have but one simple question to all the people who are so sure that a ww3 is coming: do you have any idea about how the first two world wars started or are you fear-mongering for fun? Because it’s one thing to throw (stupid) theories around, it’s another to troll over something this serious.World War One started because Germany was convinced France and Russia would declare war on them and they wouldn’t have a chance unless they took the first move.
European expansionism lead to conflict over alliances which lead to German militarism, Franz Ferdinand’s assassination and Serbian nationalism was just a catalyst.
yes, alliances between Russia and France happened, but that is only but one cause.
It was a fairly linear progression.
At 2/15/22 10:58 PM, Skoops wrote: All of this hinges on the Russian supposition that Ukraine is about to join NATO, which it isn't. Nobody with the power to bring Ukraine into NATO wants to,
The people voted in a pro-Eu government so they can join the EU and the people do want to join NATO, that's why Russia is pulling the bullshit it did because itt effect them economically and at a strategic disadvantage. If the government decides to join NATO and the EU putin is threatening to invade.
At 2/15/22 04:50 PM, Tony-DarkGrave wrote:At 2/15/22 01:25 PM, Gario wrote:That's because Putin is being the whiny Russian bitch that he is, he put a kibosh on it because Ukraine wanted to join the EU and NATO.
this will not cause a world war, ukraine is not a part of NATO
russia invading a NATO country would cause a world war, but for all his bluster i don't think putin is that stupid
If they do invade America is going to get involved aid and troops are already there and it will push Finland and Sweden to NATO which are west to Russia which it already is leaving St. Petersburg and its Baltic access vulnerable.
And Georgia and Azerbaijan want to join the EU and NATO and are already on the path on doing so in the 2025-30ish area and they are south of Russia which could provoke another session of Chechen independence which Russia has to put down regularly and them join NATO would give us access to the Caspian Sea and the heart of Russia and CTSO countries and their military movements and getting Turkey EU Membership should be a priority despite what those morons in Germany say going on about "human rights" and not being "European enough" because Turkey joining the Eu and adopting the Euro would bolster the Eurozone economy exponentially.
What should also be done is blockade Russian military vessels this can be done with Turkey as a NATO and their waterway the Strait of Istanbul then another blockade where Denmark is as a NATO member, and if Russia invades then do it for ALL RUSSIAN VESSELS that would cripple their economy with no direct access to the Atlantic Ocean and the Mediterranean Sea.
That's what Biden and the EU should be pushing for it'll deincentize Putin and the Russian economy to the point they can't fight just like the USSR.
Why must everything be confrontational?
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At 2/16/22 01:02 PM, DamnedByFate wrote:
Why must everything be confrontational?
Because passive sheep bullshit let's bullies think they can get away with anything they want, you'd think Germans would learn that thanks to your bullshit through almost all of the 20th century, but I guess not.
At 2/16/22 02:16 PM, Tony-DarkGrave wrote:At 2/16/22 01:02 PM, DamnedByFate wrote:Because passive sheep bullshit let's bullies think they can get away with anything they want, you'd think Germans would learn that thanks to your bullshit through almost all of the 20th century, but I guess not.
Why must everything be confrontational?
yeah, ngl i'm on tony's side on this one
russia is showing signs that they're backing off atm, hopefully it leads to a full de-escalation on their end, and i'd argue the show of force from nato on the other ukrainian border, the threat of economically crippling russia, and the supply of arms to ukraine played a key role in that
if you don't want a hot war, sometimes you have to show you're not afraid to engage in one if the other side starts it; this is why sometimes the pro peace side is the one willing to show they will fight hard in the face of aggression
in the face of real consequences sometimes the aggressor will actually back down
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At 2/16/22 02:55 PM, Gario wrote:
yeah, ngl i'm on tony's side on this one
russia is showing signs that they're backing off atm, hopefully it leads to a full de-escalation on their end, and i'd argue the show of force from nato on the other ukrainian border, the threat of economically crippling russia, and the supply of arms to ukraine played a key role in that
if you don't want a hot war, sometimes you have to show you're not afraid to engage in one if the other side starts it; this is why sometimes the pro peace side is the one willing to show they will fight hard in the face of aggression
in the face of real consequences sometimes the aggressor will actually back down
And my solution above is just economic and mild military intervention which wouldn't lead to anything hot either and Russia would never go chips in over it the Russian economy is in shambles and the Russian Ruble is worth less than what it takes to print it.
Applying serious economic sanctions like cutting off that German pipline and cutting them off from major US financial institutions, seizing government assets, cutting internet backbones like Cloudflare, Google and AWS would really do a number on their cyber ops and economy and being able to hinder their military movements out of the Mediterranean and the Baltics would be huge the only Navy bases for them would be their base in Murmansk up in the Arctic circle.
Thqt would bankrupt them like we did the USSR by wasting more resources and wealth on operations than they can generate for example with the Star Wars program and funding the Afghan side of the Afghan Soviet War.
At 2/16/22 03:13 PM, Tony-DarkGrave wrote:
And my solution above is just economic and mild military intervention which wouldn't lead to anything hot either and Russia would never go chips in over it the Russian economy is in shambles and the Russian Ruble is worth less than what it takes to print it.
any direct military intervention would almost definitely cause russia to go hot against america, and would likely earn the ire of the international community against america; that isn't a good idea
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At 2/11/22 03:57 PM, mile667 wrote: it seems to me like Russia and United States are like the kids in the class that never liked one another and then vage proxy wars and Ukraine is one of thenm it got caught on fire and it hurts,all can say whern2 bears wrestle
the grass gets hurt
i'm irish and im worried that we will have a fucking red dawn situation
all our lads from the army are in syria and afghan so if something like that does happen
we're fucked
even if russia doesn't go nuclear
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At 2/16/22 03:34 PM, Gario wrote:
any direct military intervention would almost definitely cause russia to go hot against america, and would likely earn the ire of the international community against america; that isn't a good idea
A territory embargo on military movement through waterway chokepoints like Denmark and Turkey are totally legal and if Russia tries running it that's an act of war invading sovereign territory a violation of international law and Article 5 of the NATO Charter can be declared by that nation.
At 2/16/22 02:16 PM, Tony-DarkGrave wrote: Because passive sheep bullshit let's bullies think they can get away with anything they want,
What did I tell you about grammar?
you'd think Germans would learn that thanks to your bullshit through almost all of the 20th century, but I guess not.
What we learnt is that war sucks and must be averted at all costs.
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At 2/16/22 04:01 PM, DamnedByFate wrote:
What we learnt is that war sucks and must be averted at all costs.
I keep forgetting that's what they teach you you in German primary schools so the cycle of sheep's wool over your eyes continues.
